J-M & AF #2

[suzene]

Maybe, but comes off pretty weak if you cut out the religious aspect of it. Much of her suffering was due to her believing that she was sinning, which was enforced by the nuns who are "god's representatives" on Earth. In a child's mind their authority is above question. "Using a sister without using a sister" might be passable for new readers, but for older fans it comes across as pretty lame, and messing with continuity.

I don't mind if you speak for yourself as a knowledgeable fan, but please do not presume to speak for me or others. Obviously I can't do anything about you not liking the idea I put forward, but it is continuity compliant, as nothing in that scenario conflicts with the abuse Jeanne-Marie suffered at the hands of the nuns. It does omit the reasons why her caretakers would be so severe, but IMO, that doesn't take away from the horror of a scenario where someone in authority beat a young girl into a psychotic break, particularly when coupled with the repressive measures referenced on the first page of the scene. The reason why they did it becomes less important than bringing the memory of pain, helplessness, and futility. I am not disagreeing with you about the impact of religion in Jeanne-Marie's backstory, but, with that particular detail off of the table, saying that only sexual abuse could have anywhere near the same impact and suffering as her religious conflict, and so the writers had to include it instead of just going with the mental/physical abuse angle is something I cannot get behind. I find that idea fundamentally repugnant, both as a woman and as a storyteller.

Comes off pretty weak again as he wasn't the one who directly inflicted the pain. I can't see Aurora turning to the dark side to get even with someone not directly involved with the abuse.

It depends on who gets viewed as having done a greater evil: the person who inflicts harm, or the person who, despite their duty to the safety of a child and having the power to stop it, stands idly by and allows it to continue on. If you think it's the former, no harm there -- there's a reason why that sort of question kicks up some fairly heated debates -- but that doesn't make it a less viable option.

They can't use Walter as he'd be getting the brainwashing treatment too.

As Mac pointed out, they have tons of VR and brainbending equipment -- wouldn't be difficult to make her think Walter was there.

Plus, Aurora was the personality that wanted, and pursued the relationship with him, while the Jeanne-Marie personality, though disliking Walter, didn't hate him, and would be too moral to seek revenge, especially on someone who is helpless.

I don't believe Aurora is supposed to be a factor at the moment; both Walter's comments about the "new" her and Jean-Paul's concerns about a stress relapse seem to indicate that Jeanne-Marie has integrated on some level. Keep in mind that the entire scenario in the book is based on Unity urging revenge on someone who harmed Jeanne-Marie in the past, drawing specifically on Jeanne-Marie's traumas -- they certainly do hope she'll try to do something to the person helpless in that chair, whoever it happens to be. BTW, that is some seriously problematic wording, because it looks like you are implying that it would be immoral for a woman to take revenge on her rapist/abuser in a genre that's built on people punching other people for their crimes.

Besides, it would be far more likely to explain why her mind split along sexual lines; her Aurora personality being promiscuous while the Jeanne-Marie personality is prudish.

See, now you're moving your argument from "this is bad but they had no choice" to "this is justified by the subtext". And given that it doesn't take anywhere near even the previously established abuse and oppression that Jeanne-Marie suffered for a woman in our society to grow up with a severely warped and shamed view of her own sexuality...well, it may seem only logical to you, but, as I said previously, given what had already been established so far as to the childhood abuse leading up to Jeanne-Marie's break, from this corner comes across as gratuitous, retconned victimization in a character who's already had more than her fair share, not to mention adding to the long, long list of incidents contributing to the attitude that sexual abuse/rape is just what happens to female characters.

I agree it's not necessary, except that Marvel is taking out any mention of the aspect of her origin that had the greatest impact on her young mind: her religious beliefs. While a child might question an adult, few would question a religious authority.

How often does a child question a parent, however? Closer to the subject at hand, how many abused kids wind up hospitalized or dead because they can't question the authority of their caretakers and ask for help from the outside world? The nuns weren't just religious figures in Jeanne-Marie's life, they were the absolute authority, religious and otherwise, because she literally had no one else.