A Reason For Alpha Flight

[Le Messor]

The person I most agree with here is Suzene (obviously Dfense, too, but he... or she?... sorry, I've just realised I don't actually know... had less to say).

The 'hunting down all our expatriots' thing would make them look fascist - unheroic. If I wanted to read about unheroic superheroes, I'd look at v2 again, ever. Something I plan not to do.
The difference between hunting down Wolverine in Uncanny #120-121 and the suggestion here is that Wolverine was an AWOL soldier, with a lot of Canadian money invested in him. The twins and Jeffries are just people who happened to work for the government for a while. (AFAIK, Aurora is still in Canada, btw.)

The idea of making them more bad-ass just sounds like a return to the 90s era of comics - and nobody wants that.

Suzene's idea of them taking down that kind of 'evil government conspiracy' thing, especially while working for the government, works much better for me.

- Le Messor
"I've just developed a proof that demonstrates that, where n>2, the equation (a^n) + (b^n) = c^n cannot be solved with integers. Unfortunately, my train is coming."
- Graffiti in a subway (re: Fermat's Last Theorem)

[Dfense75]

Suzene nailed it. I think that could be a winning formula...and I am male

[Legerd]

I want to see AF go rogue. Not only do they not have ties to the government, they burn those bridges and don't look back. With Talisman leading the team, they take up a mission of some sort (bringing the old guard back from the dead, fighting a new Great Beast threat, or battling some new mystical menace) which takes them around (and off) the globe and into conflict with various heroes, teams and evil organizations. They don't have the luxury to play fair, and act like "nice, polite Canadians", rather the mission forces them to do things that make it appear they've gone bad.
They gather what Alphans are still around, either repowering the mutant members that had lost their powers, or maybe providing a Guardian-style suit to them (Windshear, I'm looking at you). This, of course, would bring them up against the X-men as well as anyone enforcing the SHRA in the US. Along the way other heroes can join them (Dr. Strange isn't up to anything is he?) to help, some staying some not, some falling along the wayside as they go. They can show up in Latveria to either stop Dr. Doom or team up with him. Later they go to Wakanda to seek out BP's help. Afterward they head to England and end up going against Captain Britain who doesn't realize AF is actually on a heroic mission.
I want to see the status quo kinda shaken up as far as what everyone thinks a "typical" AF story is. Very tense stories filled with lots of character building, driven by an over-arcing plot that forces the heroes to push beyond the boundaries they have.

[Flightpath07]

"What would likely work best for an Alpha Flight book in terms of generating interest would be to get the band (or what's left of it) back together -- to go heavy on the old guard to get as many of the hardcore Alphans and X-Fans as possible interested. Sasquatch, Box, the Beaubier twins, Snowbird, and Talisman make up a good starting roster, Mar could possibly have grown into something useful and has ties to Atlantis, and if the writer's feeling exceptionally generous, Earthmover could be used as something other than a joke. There's a good mix of interpersonal tension there -- things should not be smooth between Talisman and Earthmover, especially if Elizabeth is put in the position of having to pick up where her father left off in mentoring him, everyone would just be waiting for Plodex Jr. to go evil, and Box and Snowbird have both recently lost people they're close to, but while Madison is grieving the death of his wife and lost opportunities, Narya is rediscovering the joys of mortal life. There's even something of an inversion of the old Sasquatch/Aurora/Northstar triangle to be played with, as the twins are getting along well nowadays while Sasquatch is just the ex-flame, failed scientist and team-leader, and generally the odd man out.

As for what the premise would be, I'd say aim high. The joke about MU Canada has always been that, between Dept.H and Weapon X, snowy, benevolent Canada has the most evil government ever. So have a new department come in and get the old team together specifically with the goal of taking on these shadowy, clandestine weaponization projects that keep sprouting up."

It's a good thought(s) , but here is my problem with the above; Who, outside of current Alpha Flight fans, would care about any of this stuff?

Unfortunately, the answer is, Nobody.

And that is why we do not have an Alpha Flight.

Again, the "putting them at odds with other super teams, for reasons that not only make sense but also go back to the original idea behind the team" is what I think would work.

You take this new team (by new, I mean badass, take charge, no nonsense guys and gals, some brand new and some established) and you throw them into the X-books, trying to regain Wolverine and Jeffries and Northstar. They come in like thunder (the rumbling noise, not the horse from volume 3), bash some heads, kick arse all over the place, and get narrowly defeated. Heck, at some point, have them drag a Jeffries back to Canada, and have the X-Men come along and invade Canada to take him back; that'd be cool, wouldn't it?

The idea is, introduce them in other books, Make people like them, respect them, care about them, be fascinated by them.

Now, throw them into an Avengers story or two, have them team up to fight off some big menaces. Have them be a little "cold" towards the Avengers, a little untrusting becuz they are Canada's team representing Canada and they won't take no crud from nobody. Have them save the day, using strength and intelligence - but also show that they do not trust heroes outside of Canada's borders.

Now, you have them as bad guys, "foils" if you will. You also have them as good guys, totally able to save the day. Willing to team up with others when it is necessary. You have now shown them to be ruthless, nasty, untrusting, and very very powerful and unpredictable.

Now, you give them a special of their own, or a mini-series. Keep the guest appearances up, and keep them full of attitude and raw power.

Now, now you have the recipe for a successful comic series. A series called Alpha Flight.

[Le Messor]

It's a good thought(s) , but here is my problem with the above; Who, outside of current Alpha Flight fans, would care about any of this stuff?
Unfortunately, the answer is, Nobody.

I think you'd be surprised. I get the impression a lot of people who aren't current fans do like and care about Alpha Flight, they just haven't seen it since 1985. (Or the year Byrne quit, whichever is closer.) When I hear comics fans mention them it's with respect and care at least as often (if not more) as with disdain.

You take this new team (by new, I mean badass, take charge, no nonsense guys and gals, some brand new and some established)

Please watch the video at this link. (Yes, the same one I linked to above.)
You might understand better my reaction to what you're saying.

They come in like thunder

Do you mean the ho-

(the rumbling noise, not the horse from volume 3)

Way to preempt my bad puns, dude.

The idea is, introduce them in other books, Make people like them, respect them, care about them, be fascinated by them.

The problem is, I think everything you're suggesting would acheive the exact opposite of that. Nobody's going to like the team of 'good guys' who keeps coming in just to lay the smack down on 'their' team. They'd have to keep losing (as you mention), and the fans are not going to respect that. The people you describe are ruthless, nasty, cold, bad-ass, and untrusting; and that's not the way to get people to care about them. (Again we're in the 90s; see the link). Yet another group trying to look bad-ass (and failing, because they have to keep losing) would be dull, dull, dull! rather than fascinating. Trying to look bad-ass and losing all the time is not the way to gain respect. Fighting established teams and winning is not the way to fans' hearts - and by definition, this will be the fans of those teams.
What I care about - and I think a lot of people do - is human stories; stories about people being people, not just a bunch of tough guys hitting each other.

Heck, at some point, have them drag Jeffries back to Canada, and have the X-Men come along and invade Canada to take him back; that'd be cool, wouldn't it?

No, sir, it would not. Not to me.

have them team up to fight off some big menaces.

Yes! This part-this is a much better answer. Have them team up. Have them help the other teams, even prove themselves against them - by fighting with them, not against them. Have them even prove themselves better at some things than those teams; the Avengers face a mystical menace just like Alpha have been doing all this time - so they need Alpha's expertise to help them. Alpha come in and are helpful to them, and get along (though certain members have friction with certain others; I don't have anyone specific in mind). This will gain respect, and like, and could be handled fascinatingly.

- Le Messor
Groucho: "Do you follow me?"
Margaret Dumont: "Yes!"
Groucho: Well, you better stop following me, or I'll have you arrested."
~ A Night at the Opera

[Flightpath07]

Le Messor, nobody here is saying that a bad-ass character has to have little or no characterization behind them. Perhaps AF could be the next wave of really good characters, by actually making tough characters who have real personalities and are real characters beyond their punching other peoples' lights out!

Likewise, nobody here is suggesting that they need to lose all their fights. Cuz, that would make them perennial losers, the brunt of jokes, like...oh, I dunno...maybe like Alpha Flight has been for quite some time?

I also do not believe in putting round pegs in square holes (who digs a square hole, anyways!?). No Sasquatch on this team, not the right personality. Likewise, no Talisman or Snowbird. i actually beleive that leaving these three OFF of the team, creates interesting future moments for when you do see one of these three characters; Why are they not on the team? Do they have moral objections? Were they never asked to participate? What do they think of this team? How will they interact?

For me, i'd make this team be led by a re-powered Windshear (hard-air molecule formation and control), his teammates being Wyre (genetically altered assassin with enhanced strength and speed and reflexes, plus uses guns and has central-nervous-system-bonded wires that come out of him), a re-animated Wild Child in his "bad-boy pierced mode" (nasty savage with little to no morals), Murmur (spicy French woman with a 'tude who controls people psionically through touch), Yukon Jack (demi-god, very powerful, very moody), Earthmover (powerful but little-trained mystic with Omega level powers), and Daisy, as it never actually been established that she wasn't a Canadian citizen originally (super strength).

[Ahab]

No Sasquatch on this team, not the right personality. Likewise, no Talisman or Snowbird.

For me, i'd make this team be led by a re-powered Windshear (hard-air molecule formation and control), his teammates being Wyre (genetically altered assassin with enhanced strength and speed and reflexes, plus uses guns and has central-nervous-system-bonded wires that come out of him), a re-animated Wild Child in his "bad-boy pierced mode" (nasty savage with little to no morals), Murmur (spicy French woman with a 'tude who controls people psionically through touch), Yukon Jack (demi-god, very powerful, very moody), Earthmover (powerful but little-trained mystic with Omega level powers), and Daisy, as it never actually been established that she wasn't a Canadian citizen originally (super strength).

So basically, no classic Alpha Flight characters.
No thanks.

(Don't take this too seriously. I woul read it, but there's just been too many iterarions out there without the characters we all fell in love with...Like the past volumes, I would be constantly hoping/wondering when an old friend would be showing up...)

[Le Messor]

Flightpath - you're right, of course. There's no reason a bad-ass has to have little or no characterisation. I wasn't thinking (that sounds sarcastic, but it isn't - I really wasn't thinking).
That said, it still sounds to me like the point of what you're saying is to have bad-ass characters - and that rarely translates to characterisation; it's usually done to be cool, rather than good. Think Poochie.
A good creative team, of course, could make it good.

Even then, though, it wouldn't be characterisation I'd enjoy. The characters I enjoy reading about are ones I relate to - and that isn't characters who are always trying to be bad-ass. Even if they're well-written. I hate it when the 'heroes' in my fiction are nasty people, which you're saying you want. I've never liked that in anything I've read or watched.
Bad-ass characters can be enjoyable, of course (Angel springs to mind), but not my preference. Alpha Flight has never been about that, and something called Alpha Flight that was about being bad-ass would frustrate me.

As to losing all the time? If they're going up against heroes, heroes with their own books, they would either have to lose most or all of the time (because they're guesting in other people's books, and everybody's the best in their own books), or be seen taking out somebody else's favourite team. Then they'll be those nasty people who <fanboy>'unrealistically took out my team when my team is much better. I hope somebody got fired for that blunder!'. </fanboy>* Either way, they won't win.

They'd have to treat the other teams they meet with respect - it's one of those things you have to give it if you want to get it - and the team you're describing wouldn't do that. Other teams' fans wouldn't respect them for that, and I wouldn't respect them for that.

Like Ahab, I'd not be interested in this team that has no classic characters - it'd the first comic with that title that didn't even have a version of Sasquatch in #1. (Didn't you say before you did want Talisman?)
The team you've put together has nobody I could relate to (maybe Windshear). A book which is about being tough and cool and...
I'd read it, of course; it's called Alpha Flight and I'd feel duty-bound, but it'd be so not Alpha Flight, I'd whine incessantly, and I can't see myself enjoying it.

There's reasons why John Byrne's Alpha Flight is my favourite comic book, and it doesn't sound like a single one of those reasons would be in the title you describe. And I can seriously imagine a lot of comics readers being cynical and saying 'Oh, look, it's little Alpha Flight, that team that was such a joke, trying to be bad-ass'.

Who digs a square hole? Only the grave digger.

* Yeah, as if I can turn off my fanboy mode...

- Le Messor
"Great, now I'm gonna be stuck with serious thoughts all day."
~ Cordelia

[mos_def]

Its been awhile since Ive been on the boards but did ALpha Flight win the poll for which title you want back on the Quesada board?

[cmdrkoenig67]

Its been awhile since Ive been on the boards but did ALpha Flight win the poll for which title you want back on the Quesada board?

Yes they did, MD.

Dana

[mos_def]

I think people have to raise the threat level of the people Alpha FLight fights against. I always believed the Master got more recognition when he fought H4H or the Avengers. Have someting that happens in Alpha Flight affect its southern neighbors. Pink Pearl can only get you so many readers. Some people may not like vol2 but at least they took a chance at going into a level which only us Alpha fans knew existed and they ran with it. Vol3 was a joke and OF was nothing deep.

[humanracin]

Marvel have tried to "revamp" AF at least three times by introducing "new" characters in the past with little success.
That is because the core AF fans want the original and best team back together. Most of them are still alive!
Northstar, Aurora, Sasquach, Box, Talisman, Snowbird...
Classic team revamps are selling very well at Marvel because it is what the REAL FANS want, just look at NEW MUTANTS.

[cmdrkoenig67]

What I really don't get, is that Alpha Flight desperately has to have a unique hook for Marvel to relaunch it....Why? Why not a book with a great creative team that wants to do it, with a familiar line-up of heroes and some familiar villains (I'm sure any new writer and artist team would want to throw in something new also...I know I would)?

How many X-books are out there, with all basically the same premise (a team of mutants who are hated and feared by their fellow humans and who fight against evil mutant and evil human alike)? How many Avengers books are there now? It seems insane to me for Marvel to put so many books out that are all so similar to each other, but not give a chance to a book that just might be different enough to stand out and have the very unique-ness they claim they want in a book.

Another thing I'm wondering about is this....Won't Marvel eventually lose the rights to the name Alpha Flight, if they don't use it? They lost the rights to use the name Champions for a team (they didn't use the name for many years, then another company used the name for their team of super beings and now Marvel can't use it)...Couldn't the same happen with Alpha?

Dana

[AKexpress]

What I really don't get, is that Alpha Flight desperately has to have a unique hook for Marvel to relaunch it....Why? Why not a book with a great creative team that wants to do it, with a familiar line-up of heroes and some familiar villains (I'm sure any new writer and artist team would want to throw in something new also...I know I would)?

Amen!

[AKexpress]

Another thing I'm wondering about is this....Won't Marvel eventually lose the rights to the name Alpha Flight, if they don't use it? They lost the rights to use the name Champions for a team (they didn't use the name for many years, then another company used the name for their team of super beings and now Marvel can't use it)...Couldn't the same happen with Alpha?

I'm not sure about that. I thought Marvel was using the name Champions for one of the Avengers: Initiative teams. Or maybe that's how it came up, they wanted to but couldn't...